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Since first teaming up in Dokken in 1983, George Lynch and Jeff Pilson have formed a creative duo rarely seen on the hard rock scene. They teamed up once again to form The End Machine with vocalist Robert Mason and another member of the classic Dokken lineup, Mick Brown. For their second record, Phase 2, Mick has retired and is replaced by his brother Steve. George recently sat down, guitar in hand, to talk about this record and the future of Dokken.
Please press the PLAY icon below for the MisplacedStraws.com Conversation with George Lynch –
On Steve Brown taking the place of his brother Mick – Well, it was pretty self-evident and logical because he’s a slightly younger, more enthusiastic, fresher version of his brother with all the chops and the same style and sense of humor and he sings the same. His background vocals are the same. It’s like it’s uncanny. It’s unbelievable. So is a really good natural fit. 1:09
On writing the record during the pandemic – Well, we had to do it Covid style this time around, which means we were all working remotely, actually no, I take that back. Jeff (Pilson) and I started working together at his studio, which is down the street from me, so it’s easy. Things started ramping up with the pandemic, so we got to a point where we didn’t feel comfortable like we’re being sort of irresponsible and probably had to rethink how we were working. So we had some beds laid down, I can’t remember how many songs we’d written and worked up pre-pandemic, but then we had a little bit of a learning curve we had to get over as far as trying to figure out how to work remotely together, so it was a little painful, but not too bad. It was pretty cool because since I have established this way of working, it’s very efficient. Listening to the record, we did that record without being in the same room together. I’m not going to say it’s better than the first record, but it’s closer to what we envisioned set out to make the record. The first record is kind of all over the place, I like to think of the first record as the second record, it’s more adventurous and kind of not focused. The record we just finished really sounds like it should be the first record because it doesn’t have all the frills and the self-indulgences. We just want really strong hooks and we want easily digestible songs that are not insanely challenging or anything for the listeners, but just real gratifying, more meat, potatoes, less dessert. 1:58
“Blood & Money”
On changing the band’s sound a little on Phase 2 – I think we started to recognize the challenge of doing what people expected like a smart corporation would. A company would say, “OK, well, why would we sell an obscure product that nobody wants? Why don’t we sell people what they want?” That’s always proven to be challenging for us because of all the styles of compositions that I do personally. I know for Jeff as well, because we talk about this a lot, the most challenging and the hardest thing for us to do is to recreate that ’80s chemistry and vibe in our writing. It’s really hard to do because either you’re copying it, which is cheesy, or you’re missing the mark and then you’re sounding like something else. What is this? It’s sort of nondescript. Neither one of us has really had an experience where we went, “Oh, let’s try to put ourselves back in that mindset of you and I being in a room writing the Tooth and Nail record or the Under Lock and Key record. Let’s put ourselves back in that place”, even though every molecule in our body has changed, exchanged 100 times and we’ve got all these different life experiences and so forth, we’re not really those same people anymore. That’s really tricky and I feel that on some levels we’ve succeeded finally with this record. And you’d think that would be the easiest thing to do. 4:32
On his chemistry with Jeff Pilson – Well, we don’t have to go through the whole initial process that I have to go through with a lot of people, which is trying to vet each other out and sort of figure out how to work together and find common ground. All those really triangulated aspects of the process, which is sort of behind the scenes and not really self-evident when you listen to music. With Jeff, it’s like an old married couple. Everything is sort of understood and we can finish each other’s sentences as related to the sounds we’re looking for on any of the instruments or what we’re trying to achieve sonically or arrangement-wise or stylistically what we’re trying to write. All those kinds of things, we’re on the same page so it makes communication way easier, we don’t have to spend energy on that. 6:38
“Crack the Sky”
On if he likes the freedom of doing multiple projects – Well, from a creative standpoint, absolutely, I like the challenge of playing different styles of music and playing with different people and playing something that’s a little bit different style rock that I’m known for or used to. But on the other side of the coin, the business side of it, it’s not as gratifying because it’s a hard sell. The Banishment is a good example of that. A lot of people are resistant, a lot of fans are resistant. In my case, I’ve experienced quite a few of them, a large percentage of them or I don’t know what percentage, but (they) just reject anything that isn’t what they assume I should be doing. I can’t belittle that because these are the people that support me and that have bought what I’m selling in the past and I have defined myself and that means something to them and they value that. There’s some self-identity involved with that on their part. So for me to abandon that, some people take that very personal as they should, I guess. It’s difficult for them. So they think it’s sort of self-indulgent and selfish of me to veer from what I made a supposed commitment to us. But I’m not this huge famous guy like an Eddie Van Halen on a commercial level. I haven’t been preordained to be something that’s set in stone. I have the flexibility to do other things because of my lack of commercial success. So there’s a good side to that. It offers me a sense of freedom creatively that I wouldn’t have necessarily if I was a slave to selling millions and millions and millions of records every time I put something out and there’d be a lot of consequences if I took a misstep and didn’t play to my brand. 9:31
On new guitar players – I got to be super honest with you, I don’t know everybody’s name and I follow people on Instagram and stuff like that. There are guys that I watch and listen to and appreciate, but I don’t know their records, I can’t name their songs. It’s not like that. We’ve gone through a couple of paradigm shifts and in guitar evolution in the last two generations, for several generations, since my heyday, since the 80s. I don’t really know what to make of it. Legacy guys are going to always be living in the past to some extent and missing the old days. I remember my older generation of musicians I would listen to always just talking about the people that influence them, Link Wray and Elvis, people from the 50s, that meant nothing to me. I’m like, “I don’t know who those guys are and I don’t care. I just want to hear these new bands from 1968 or 1972”, and I’m still like that, too. I’m just like, there’s nothing better than the stuff I grew up with, they were the giants at the end of that. I still feel that’s true. When I run into young people today, young players who don’t think much of Hendrix it just blows my mind. I try to be open-minded and but also realize that I can’t really be too involved. It’s not my job to be involved in the new generation of players. The guys that Tosin Abasi has bread. I don’t do that. I’ll never do that. If I tried, I would look ridiculous trying. It’s kind of funny, I have a guitar company called Mr. Scary Guitars and I built a seven-string lefthanded Bones guitar with a left-handed tremolo. With all my guitars, I demo my instruments for the customer, for my client. So I do a video demo explaining every aspect of the guitar and playing on it what it does and everything. I got to his guitar, I’m like, wait a minute. First of all, I don’t really play seven-string and then second of all, I definitely don’t play left-handed. (Playing left-handed) it’s not fun. You sound like you’ve been playing for about seven days. I mean, that’s that I that’s what I feel like when I’m trying to stay up with these guys, like Tosin. I hate to say this, it sounds terrible, but it kind of reminds me of an even older legacy guy trying to stay up with tapping or something that he thinks is modern and cool, don’t even try. You’re just going to do it badly and embarrass yourself. That’s how I feel about this modern influx of players. I have no business, really. I can comment on it. I appreciate it, which I do. I buy Animals as Leaders records and I use some of his software when I’m recording actually and stuff, but I’m not going to try to play djent music, nor is my opinion even that valid related to the whole genre and the whole class of players. One thing that is pretty amazing to me is it all comes from a school base. These guys just aren’t playing off the top of their heads and their hearts. The influences in there are insane. It’s Django, Bebop. It’s definitely jazz and avant-garde and progressive, and just holy shit and interest in soul and funk and playing percussively and doing all this counterpoint stuff and two-handed. Wow. It’s like taking that Stanley Jordan thing and just evolving it way beyond anything that we would have imagined. I just think it maybe begs the question, “Are we here to serve technique or technique here to serve us?” And I don’t think it’s actually a mutually exclusive query. I think it’s probably not the right way of framing the question. I think it’s both and I think it’s beautiful and wonderful and I love to see that the guitar world has evolved in a more meaningful way that’ll kind of stand the test of time. I think we got into the speed wars back in the late 80s, that sort of self-imploded under its own weight. It kind of worked itself into a corner. There are only so many 32nd notes you can play, 64th notes, where does this lead us? 12:24
“Burn The Truth”
On playing live after the pandemic layoff – It’s important for all of us to play live occasionally, even if you’re not going to do it regularly because it’s a whole different thing than the studio thing is. I’ve been sitting here in the studio for a year like most of us, I can do that, I’ve got that wired. But I went out and I did some kind of live thing not too long ago. It’s a corporate thing, all safe, an outdoor thing. And boy, I didn’t have my legs. I mean, it felt very, very strange to be, quite, honest, and I did not play well. I was playing a lot, I was in the saddle a lot, every day in the studio, five days a week, just playing (thinking this) is going to be great. It was like, man, I’ve got to get back into this. This is a different animal. I’ve got to get acclimated. So I worry about that. 20:52
On a Dokken reunion – I’ve actually been talking to Don (Dokken) a little bit and we’re both in agreement that that should probably happen, meaning some kind of a meaningful reunion done in the right way, carefully and with proper preparation and time and rehearsals. Not just throwing it out there like we did last time. So and I think the obvious choice to replace Mick would be his brother Steve. 22:03
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